Talk:Confederate Medal of Honor (Sons of Confederate Veterans)

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Confederate Medal of Honor winters

I just don't think the list of Confederate soldiers awarded the Confederate medal of honor (1861-1865) is correct. These men may have been awarded a medal or some form of recognition after the war but this one list should only include soldiers awarded this per a General Order during the war. Rjr1960 (talk) 16:24, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Furthermore, should the SCV additions even be mentioned here? Is it about a confederate award or an award made by a confederate group? Garuda28 (talk) 18:11, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The list of some of the 48 recipients of the Confederate Medal of Honor would have received said medal in the war. The SCV merely mints the medal and provides it to the descendants of the recipients. The CMOH is a bona fide government award, not from the SCV or a Confederate heritage group. The same is true for the 2,404 names on the Roll of Honor. Reading every name on the various "rolls of honor" show distinctions between these two honors. One was intended to have a medal, the other merely listed like the British "Mentioned in Dispatches". I made all this quite clear when I wrote these pages in 2017. As a life member of the SCV and a professional historian from West Point, I know where the facts stand. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X62225 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I searched the SCV website and can't find any list of recipients of the CMOH. The only listing anywhere seems to be this PDF on a private individual's website, which doesn't list its sources: http://www.thedonovan.com/historystuff/ConfederateMedalWinners.pdf Is there a definitive list of CMOH awardees somewhere? Mobi Ditch (talk) 23:44, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As for who issues them, it's clearly the SCV. If, as you say, the CSA put 2,404 names on the Roll of Honor, then who decided which 48 people would receive the CMOH? So far as I can tell, that's a decision by the SCV. As for being comparable to "Mentioned in dispatches", the Roll of Honor was constructed differently, if I understand correctly. It was voted on by members of a unit, instead of being designated only by superior officers. Mobi Ditch (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CSA honours

How can an award created after the destruction of the CSA be a CSA honour?Slatersteven (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article mixes up the intention of a Confederate Medal of Honor, which was realized in the Roll of Honor, with the post-war award of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. ...GELongstreet (talk) 19:19, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I Should have made it clear, I taged the medal in question it is the Southern Cross of Honor.Slatersteven (talk) 19:49, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think there may be some confusion here. So far as I can tell, the CSA Congress created the Confederate Roll of Honor. The Confederate Medal of Honor is the creation of the SCV. It is not, strictly speaking, a "CSA Honor". If that's correct, then this table is mislabeled:

Medal	Awards	Authorized	Presented	Established
Confederate Roll of Honor	2,104	CSA	CSA	1862
Davis Guard Medal	50	CSA	Texas	1864
New Market Cross of Honor ^{[dubious – discuss]}	294	Virginia	VMI	1904
Southern Cross of Honor ^{[dubious – discuss]}	78,761	UDC	UDC	1899

If this medal and the Southern Cross of Honor were created after the end of the CSA, then the table should probably just be deleted as it conflates actual CSA awards with those given out by heritage societies. Mobi Ditch (talk) 19:31, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've straightened up some of the mixed-up history. This award is the creation of the SCV. The Confederate Roll of Honor is entirely different. Mobi Ditch (talk) 20:01, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the Southern Cross of Honor is currently up for deletion. This article has fewer sources, and perhaps should be merged into the SCV article. Mobi Ditch (talk) 20:36, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of the awards listed in the table, only two were issued during the CSA's existence: Confederate Roll of Honor & Davis Guard Medal. Three other awards were bestowed after the collapse of the CSA, by VMI, the UDC, and SCV. Would it be possible to deal with this issue by simply renaming the table? Instead of "Other CSA Honours" how about "Decorations awarded to CSA combattants"? Also, it shouldn't say "Medal" in the first column, since the Roll of Honor was not a medal. Mobi Ditch (talk) 00:26, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having difficulty finding a good quality source that says the New Market Cross was authorized by the State of Virginia. The two sources currently in use in that article say it was given out by VMI itself (o their alumni association). Likewise, I don't see where the CSA national government authorized the Davis Guard Medal. The Congress did issue a resolution thanking the members, but it doesn't mention any award or decoration. So it might be best to delete that column entirely. Mobi Ditch (talk) 01:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Because of the difficult issues with this table, I've posted a request for help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Orders, decorations, and medals#‎Need help organizing official and unofficial Confederate decorations. Maybe someone there has a solution. Mobi Ditch (talk) 04:07, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I resolved the issues by replacing the table with a simpler template. Mobi Ditch (talk) 04:06, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1977 or 1862?

@X62225: I don't think this edit is correct. [1] First, the "CMOH" is a creation of the SCV. Second, the Confederate Congress doesn't seem to have ever authorized a CMOH. In 1862 it authorized the issuance of medals, but didn't specify a name. In 1863, the CS Army create the Roll of Honor. Is there anything wrong with that outline? Mobi Ditch (talk) 23:04, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your inquiry. This is an oft-misunderstood point. The Confederate Medal of Honor is a distinct and separate recognition by a national government, as is the Roll of Honor. However, think of it like this, the CMOH recipients were also listed on a "roll of honor" (see how its lowercased). This is the confusion. A couple years ago I edited this page with a list of over half of the 48 recipients of the highest award, the Confederate Medal of Honor. I included as a source the transcription of the rolls during the war. These have been verified by the SCV of which I am both a member and a historian. Shortly after my edits a couple years ago, someone changed the page title to include (Sons of Confederate Veterans) as part of the award. I don't know how to change this, but it is flat out wrong. The Confederate medal of Honor was established by a National Government in 1862 and is on par with the U.S. Medal of Honor. The Roll of Honor has 2,404 names also on that list. I have personally read every name and likewise provided several individual stories on that Wiki page. The recent edits removing all that research and sources is a disservice. The only rolde the SCV plays in the CMOH is to mint the medal. Furthermore, the CSA intended no medal be made for theRoll of Honor, but the SCV went one step further and misnts that medal now too. There are 48 recipients of the CMOH and 2,404 on the Roll of Honor. As both a live SCV member and a professional historian from the United States Military Academy at West Point, I hope that this will clarify all issues and my original edits from 2017 will be reinstated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X62225 (talk • contribs) 23:17, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@X62225: It appears with this disclosure you may have a conflict of interest. I strongly reccomend you review Wikipedia’s guidelines on this at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Garuda28 (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So you want people editing Wiki pages that don't know what they're talking about? Just because I'min the SCV does not make years of study null and void, nor does it make the facts any different. I invite you to read the rolls of honor, the Roll of Honor, and the citations of the 48 CMOH awardees as named by the Confederate Government. Please, duplicate my research and you will find that my data is spot on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by X62225 (talk • contribs) 23:28, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for replying here, X62225. I respect and appreciate your creation of this and other articles. However I think that your information is incorrect. So far as I've determined, the Confederate Congress merely authorized the issuance of medals, without specifying a CMOH per se. None of those awards were ever given. A year later, the Army issued an order allowing for officers and soldiers to be recognized for bravery, the Roll of Honor. I don't see any mention of a CMOH until the SCV created it. See these two sources:

Confederate States of America. Adjutant and Inspector-General's Office. "General orders. No. 131". U.S. National Library of Medicine.
"The Confederate Roll of Honor JUNE 3-AUGUST 1, 1863.--The Gettysburg Campaign". Shotgun's Home of the American Civil War.

While primary sources aren't ideal, there seems to be a lot of confusion (as you said) on this topic so they a good start. Mobi Ditch (talk) 23:35, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]